know a witch. Youíve done a few readings in Victoria. Thatís like the
witching capital of Canada. Are you a witch, or did you gravitate there?
I have been
a witch I probably still am a witch.
What happened to Timothy Learyís head?
are various versions of that, the accepted version is that he gave up
on cryonics, and had his whole body cremated. But thereís a myth or a
legend going around, or a rumour that may be true, for all I know. And
that was all put on to prevent the authorities from interfering with his
plans to commit suicide when the cancer got too painful, and have his
head preserved, and so actually it was only his body that was cremated.
The head was preserved, secretly. I donít know whether thatís true or
not; as I say, itís a rumour. Thereís another rumour going about, that
the Fed.'s have seized his ashes because of a high quality of controlled
substances in his ashes, and nobody knows what the street value might
So, where is Hitlerís cock?
Whereís Hitler's cock? Is Hitlerís cock right next to Timothy
Learyís head? Where do they hide these things, Robert Anton Wilson? Whereís
Hitlerís cock? Whereís Timothy Learyís head?
I donít know where Learyís head is hidden. Hitlerís cock, I assume, went
up in the bunker with the rest of Hitler.
Anton Wilson, are you a CIA agent?
Ahh, if I were,
I would deny it.
Are you an agent
how come you havenít been knocked off? Doesnít that lead to the fact that
you are a CIA agent, or that you are an agent of disinformation, Robert
I tell you that Mae Brussell accused me of being an agent of the Rockefeller
conspiracy. And I confessed that it was true, and I that my cellar is
stacked high with gold bars that are brought every month, by David Rockefeller,
personally. And Iím sure, up until her death, that she went around showing
that letter to prove to people that I had confessed. People who want to
believe such things are perfectly free to believe them. Woof, woof, woof.
Robert Anton Wilson, you mentioned Mae Brussell. Are you
aware of the work of Dave Emory, her kind devoted follower, Ďcause he
does a show, every week on CiTR Radio in Vancouver.
Yeah, he does
a show here too. I listen occasionally. One night, he got so tangled in
his conspiracy theory that I thought that he was accusing the Unification
Church of masterminding the bombing of Pearl Harbour. And I asked my wife,
"Is he really saying that the Unification Church bombed Pearl Harbour?"
She said, "No, but it is almost that tangled!"
And heís here every Sunday night, on CiTR Radio in Vancouver,
10:00pm-12:00am. But youíre right here, right now on CiTR Radio. You are,
indeed, Robert Anton Wilson, arenít you, Robert Anton Wilson?
what I claim, others claim that Iím an android that the CIA put in my
place after they murdered me. But I claim that Iím still Robert Anton
Wilson and not an android impersonating Robert Anton Wilson.
Robert, Iím continually fascinated with Timothy Leary. Was
he a CIA agent? Did the CIA supply him with LSD? Dave Emory and Mae Brussell
go on all about that, and in the book Acid Dreams, thereís mentions of
it as well: Timothy Leary being a part of the CIA, and having the LSD
supplied to him.
Well, I remember
once we were both speaking at NYU about virtual reality software and hardware,
and some group put out a leaflet, outside, saying that Leary and I were
both CIA agents, and I showed it to Tim, because I knew this would amuse
him. And he said, "Gee, I wish this was legal evidence, I could make the
CIA pay me for the last 18 years." But, if he was an agent, he was really
a sucker, because he never collected a penny from them.
Robert Anton Wilson, you donĻt really believe or deny stuff.
You kinda look "in between" there. You donĻt believe it; you donít deny
it. You believe that somewhere between belief and denial is the truth.
Is that true?
Well, my general
feeling is that most of the world falls in the category between 100% proven
or 100% disproven. And we live among millions and millions, or as Carl
Sagan would say, millions and millions of maybes, and only a few definite
yesís and noís here and there. And theyíre usually only temporary.
Why should everyone know about William Reich? Who was William
Reich? What should people know about William Reich?
Wilhelm, which influenced his psychology profoundly. Imagine, growing
up in a country with an absolute monarch and having the same name as him,
and a last name that means "state" in German. Wilhelm Reich itís like
he was named after the state and head of state. He was a psychologist
who developed theories so radical that, like Leary, he landed in jail.
He fared even worse than Leary; they not only threw him in jail, they
burned all of his books, too. He was thrown out of the psycho-analytical
society for being too Marxist; thrown out of the Communist party for being
too Freudian; thrown out of the Socialist party for being too anarchistic;
thrown out of Sweden for doing the kind of research that made Masters
and Johnson famous twenty years later, but he did it twenty years too
soon, and the world was not ready for it. Then, he came to this country
where he was thrown in jail as a cancer quack for publishing results in
which he didnít claim to cure cancer at all but said it might be useful
and it was worthy of "further investigation." And anybody who made that
many enemies must have had something important to say. I think that Reichís
books are very important, Iím glad that theyíre back in print again.
Did he really battle
UFOs in the desert with an orgone gun?
he did. Thatís the stage of his career thatís the most controversial,
but my personal opinion is that at very end Reich did turn paranoid. Somebody
whoíd been persecuted as persistently as he had for a period of thirty
years began to see persecution everywhere, and I think that he went over
the edge. He imagined that he was being persecuted from outer space as
well as from this planet.
Robert Anton Wilson, how could an orgone gun thwart a UFO?
What was the idea behind that?
UFOs were some kind of living ... he had different theories about the
UFOs but at one point he believed that UFOs were living matter... living
energy form that was hostile to orgone, which is the life energy. And
itís sorta like the UFOs were sorta like the kind of thing that turns
land into deserts and people into old crabs or cranks.
Why were people so scared of orgone research?
partly if Reich was right, almost most every doctor and psychiatrist in
the world has got to go back, and start over and study Reich, and give
up their present ideas, which nobody likes to hear. And the other part
is that his theories are very radical, sexually. He believed in extreme
sexual freedom, not rampant promiscuity, but an extreme right to choose.
And total abolition of laws that try to govern peopleís sexual behavior.
Anton Wilson, who flies UFOs? Thereís some people like Bill Lynn, who
believe that secret service agents are flying these UFOs with stolen Tesla
technology, that it isnít actually aliens, itís actually stolen Tesla
technology flying these UFOs, and thereís no aliens at all. What do you
think about that?
Well, my two
favourite theories about UFOs are the Personger theory. Personger is a
Canadian who lives in Ottawa, a behavioural scientist. That means he doesnít
want to be called a psychologist. Personger offers the model that UFOs
are energy fluctuations which cause poltergeist disturbances, flying furniture,
electrical malfunctions, car motors stalling, televisions going on and
off, refrigerators turning on and off... that kind of thing. Strange lights
zooming around and if you get too close, it alters your brain waves, and
causes you to hallucinate. That theory seems very plausible, and accounts
for a lot of UFOs. But thereís also a theory I like, by John Kiel, which
says that theyíre an intelligent energy form, thatĻs coexisted with us
from the beginning of time, and has been playing head games with us. They
are the same ones, as Kiel sees it, who pass themselves off as angels
and demons in the middle ages, and as dead relatives when spiritualism
was popular, and now theyíre passing themselves off as extra-terrestrials,
but theyíre an energy form that is very indifferent to human beings, but
loves playing games and deceiving us. Those two models make more sense
to me than the idea that theyíre all hallucinations or the idea that theyíre
What do you think about Tesla technology? Because, this
guy, Bill Lynn, believes that thereís going to be an invasion on July
5th, 1998. Do you believe that the world is going to end on July 5th,
1998, as the teachings of William Cooper, William Cooper, Robert Anton
Wilson, have taught us? Do you believe that aliens are going to come on
July 5th, 1998, but it isnít actually aliens, itís actually the government
flying these UFOs, and the government is going to round us up.
to the Church of the Subgenius it is July 5th 1998. But itís the Xists
from planet X who are coming, and everybody who is tithing away one-tenth
of their salary every month to the Church of the Subgenius will be picked
up by the pleasureships of the love goddess and taken to the planet of
immortality, and everybody who is not tithing to the Church of the Subgenius
will be destroyed by atomic deathrays, and thatís known as the rupture,
and that theory is just as plausible to me as the one you mentioned.
Because Tesla technology was said by this guy,
named Bill Lynn, to have forced Hitler into World War II. Like, Hitler
was bribed to enter World War II. And, well, actually ... is Hitler dead,
Robert Anton Wilson?
if heís not, heís about 106, now, and probably fairly harmless. Iíve never
heard of anybody 106 who could do much serious harm.
When did Hitler
I think he died
in the bunker in 1945. Iím sorry, Iím rather conservative about that issue.
I agree with the majority of historians.
So, you don't think
that he was at a Worldís Fair, in Albuquerque in 1967 with Eva Braun?
No no, that was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Robert Anton Wilson, what am I gonna do if my dadís a Mason? What
am I gonna do if I suspect my dad is a Mason? What should I do?
what do you want to do?
how can I spot a Mason? You know, what should I do if my dadís a Mason?
What should I do, Robert Anton Wilson?
Well, I wouldnít
do anything about it. Ask him if you can join.
How can you spot a Mason, if people out there are wondering
what a Mason looks like? You know, are there any characteristics, for
the listeners out there in Radioland? How can people spot Masons?
all have three eyes. The third eye is generally closed, but if you see
somebody whose forehead is very furrowed itís not from worries; itís because
theyíre trying to conceal their third eye.
Why have people always blamed the Masons? They have three
eyes! Everyoneís kinda teasing them! Come on, they are nice guys. I mean,
Mr. Cunningham on Happy Days wearing a Fez. What did he do wrong?
I donít know.
As far as I can make out, most of the anti-Masonic propaganda in the world
emanates from extremely paranoid right-wing Christians who are paranoid
about everybody else, not just the Masons.
Is there anybody whoís not mad at you?
Yeah, Iíve got
thousands and thousands of friends and fans all over the world.
Have you done anything to get Masons mad?
No. Iíve never
gotten a nasty letter from a Mason. Iíve got lots of nasty letters from
fundamentalist Christians and from fundamentalist materialists and from
I was looking through some newsgroups on the Internet and
some Christian guy had a quote from you... he was quoting you. He was
quoting Robert Anton Wilson. A fundamentalist Christian was quoting you!
Oh yeah, a lot
of them have been plagiarizing me for years, without quoting me directly.
A lot of them have found that selective passages from my books, out of
context , are very useful to them. I donít mind that at all, I regard
that as a marvelous joke.
Have you ever snuck into a Masonic lodge and maybe seen
a Mason sacrificing a rabbit?
Iíve been in
Masonic lodges, Iíve spoken at Masonic lodges, but Iíve never seen anyone
sacrificing a rabbit. IĻve never seen anyone copulating with a goat. I
donít believe any of those legends.
Are you jealous that Masons have secret places
to meet, like at Disneyland? Isnít there a secret place hidden above the
Pirates of the Carribean? They have a little club, The 33 Club, where
the Masons hang out, Robert Anton Wilson?
I think that everyone
has the right of free association. Iím against forcing people to open
their doors and let anybody in; thatís where Iím most at odds with the
liberals in my country. I think that everybody has the right to associate
with who they want to associate with.
Is there a secret club at Disneyland that you are aware
of Robert Anton Wilson?
All I know
about Disneyland is that above Snow Whiteís castle, Disney is supposed
to be cryogenically preserved, in a special room above Snow Whiteís castle.
I have a friend who goes to Disneyland every New YearĻs Eve and drops
acid. And when he reaches the peak, he goes and talks to Mickey Mouse
about all of his problems, and Mickey never fails. Mickey always gives
him the correct answer to guide him for the next year. Heís the only man
I know of whose god is visible, tangible and gives clear unambiguous answers.
Heís a happy man. I wish I had a religion that worked that well.
Robert Anton Wilson, arenít you, Robert Anton Wilson?
an android impersonating him.
been going on with space migration? The space migration SMILE scenario.
Has anything new been happening with that?
yeah, thereĻre more and more people who have spent time in that space
station up there. Weíre learning more and more about human beings in space.
And weíre having a lot of Mars probes going off in the near future.
What do you think about all of the Mars probes blowing up
... you mentioned the face on Mars?
Yeah, the face on Mars. Guys like Richard Hoagland believe that there
are giant cities made of glass on Mars, big skyscrapers. And the same
thing on the moon, although the glass is now broken. And that the Martian
moon, Phobos, is really a giant hollow spaceship, and everytime a probe
goes near Mars, probes get blown away, because they get too close to Phobos.
Are you aware of this, Robert Anton Wilson?
I must prefer Professor Finniganís, who I really think has really demonstrated
that the face on Mars is Moses Horowitz.
Do you believe that man landed on the moon?
Uh, yeah, Neil
Armstrong, a 33rd degree Mason. Isnít that a funny coincidence?
But wasnít the moon
landing faked? Faked! In Area 51! Robert Anton Wilson, donít let us down!
It wasnít the
moon landing that was faked; it was World War II. World War II never happened.
It was a conspiracy between Ghandi, representing the IIluminati on the
Earth plane, and Madame Blovatski representing the IIluminati on the astral
plane. And they put everybody in a deep trance and showed old films of
World War I, and everybody thought that there was a new World War. That
was to scare us into not having any more world wars. So, the revisionists
who claim that the holocaust never happened, they only got part of the
picture; they are not skeptical enough. Not only did the Holocaust never
happen, the whole damn war never happened. There was never a Hitler or
a Winston Churchill.
It was all faked.
opinions expressed are those of Robert Anton Wilson, and only Robert Anton
Wilson. Robert Anton Wilson, does John Travolta believe that God is a
reptile brain, directing us from the far side of the galaxy?
No, John Travolta
believes that God is a dead man buried at the bottom of the Pacific, named
L. Ron Hubbard.
But isnít that what the Scientologists believe, that God
is a giant reptile brain, directing us from the far side of the galaxy,
and theyíre totally frightened by Prozac? Why are Scientologists so frightened
by Prozac, Robert Anton Wilson?
Travolta wins an award, which he has a distressing habit of doing lately,
because heís a good actor. He keeps winning awards. Everytime he gets
up he thanks L. Ron Hubbard; he doesnít thank the reptile brain on the
other side of the galaxy. So I think L. Ron Hubbard is his god.
Did L. Ron Hubbard ever get interviewed by you, while you
were working for Playboy, Robert Anton Wilson? Did you ever make contact,
you and L. Ron Hubbard?
No, thank God,
Iíve never had any contact with him and Iíve had as little contact as
possible with any member of Scientology.
So, Robert Anton Wilson, who will spot the widowís son?
Whatís the new inquisition? Robert Anton Wilson?
I find some
of your questions pretty hard to field.
Ah, speaking of
fields, as W.C. Fields said, "Sometimes you have to take the bull by the
tail and look the facts in the face." Well, since the Vancouver-based
series The X-Files has been mentioning "23" quite frequently, has this
increased your book sales, at all?
know until I get my next royalties statement, but Iíve noticed how much
theyíre borrowing from me, but theyíre not the only ones. Iím the most
frequently "borrowed from" author around, I sometimes suspect.
not a paid critical consultant for The X-Files?
Oh, no, they just
read my books and use whatever they can get away with.
How do you feel about somebody ripping you off like that?
Are they doing a good job ripping you off? Could they do better?
theyíre not as funny as I am. The only thing that treats these things
as humourously as I do in my books is the film Repo Man. Thatís got everything
The X-Files has, and plus comedy. Which, I think you could say of my books
... having everything The X-Files has, plus comedy!
Have you been in contact with the "Hef" at all? What was
it like hanginí out with him in the seventies? Have you had any contact
with him since then? Did you hang out with him in the Ď70s, when you were
an editor at Playboy?
Well, no. I met
him two or three times. The only time he ever said anything that ever
stuck with me was, "Man, what a crazy shirt." I was wearing a yellow silk
shirt. [laughs] And thatís the most intimate communication we ever had
Did you ever hang at the Playboy Mansion? Like in the hot
tub with James Caan at your side, smokiní a nice one?
the mansion a few times, but I never got into the hot tub.
Caan in the hot tub?
I dunno. [laughs]
I went there a few times when Hefner invited all of the editors of the
magazine to come over to see a new movie, before it premiered, and otherwise,
I worked at the office, and didnít have anything to do with Hefner. Sorry.
What is your required reading list? A listener called earlier
in the show and wondered what your required reading list is. Robert Anton
Wilsonís recommended reading list, do you have anything?
As the matter
of fact, in the latest issue of my magazine Trajectories, which is available
at P.O. Box 700305, San Jose, CA, 95170. Send $20, and you get 4 issues.
In my next issue, I have a recommended reading list, which is not the
greatest books or my favourite books, but books that I wish everybody
would read, so that they would be more rounded. And the list is, if I
can remember it: Ulysses,
by James Joyce;
The Cantos of Ezra Pound;
Science and Sanity, by Alfred Gorgibski;
Justine by De Sade,
because it raises all of the questions that nobody can answer;
two books by Nietszche, The
Anti-Christ and Twilight of the Idols;
The Open Society and Its Enemies by Sir Carleton Popper; and
Gulliverís Travels, by Jonathan Swift.
up here, Robert Anton Wilson, Iíve heard that it isnít George Washington
on the American dollar bill, but instead itís Adam Weishaupt, founder
of the IIluminati. Is that true?
some evidence of that. And the people who want to know more about that
can find the evidence presented in my novel IlIuminatus, which is widely
available in all the better bookstores.
So, no little hints for us just now, if we donít have any
bucks, Robert Anton Wilson. A little hint about George Washington and
I prefer people
to read the books, because I donít get paid for these interviews, but
I do get paid by the book.
But weíre paying for this phone interview! Weíre paying
to interview you. Itís costing us by the hour. So, winding up here, Robert
Anton Wilson, have you heard any good conspiracy theories lately that
you havenít written books about, so that you wonít have to charge us for
Well, my current
favourite conspiracy theory is the one that Hoagland is putting forth,
that NASA has tonnes and tonnes and tonnes of evidence that there is life
on Mars, and theyíre hiding it all. I canít imagine why they would hide
it; his explanations on why they would hide it donít make make much sense
to me. But I think thatís the most amusing and bizarre conspiracy theory
Anton Wilson, would you, lastly, leave us with something special, for
the listeners out there in Radioland? Would it be possible to give an
indulgence to the listeners out there and make them popes. Please, a little
indulgence for everybody?
as a Discordian pope, I have the authority to make everybody a pope who
hears my voice. If you really and truly want to become a Discordian pope,
then just repeat after me: Spectacles, testicles, brandy, cigars. You
are now absolutely infallible and must excommunicate every other Discordian
pope you meet, because we Discordians must stick apart.
Is there anything else you would like to add to the people
out there in Radioland? Why should people care about Robert Anton Wilson?
Why should they care about you?
Well, I tell
you, "sex" is not the answer. "Sex" is the question; "yes" is the answer.
So come see me.
Thanks so much, Robert Anton Wilson. Right now weíre going
to end with a song by Buddy Knox, called "I Think Iím Going to Kill Myself."
So, keep on rockiní in a free world and doot doola doot doo≠
RAW picture by Lincoln Clarkes